The ATS Roller Coaster with John Bernatovicz
John Bernatovicz and his firm, Willory, have been through a few different ATS options and have settled on one they believe they can grow with. Listen in to hear what they've found and why they switched.
More from John: https://www.linkedin.com/in/johnbernatovicz/
[Transcribed from the video above]
00:05.85
Brad Owens
Hello everybody welcome back to another episode of the transform recruiting podcast I'm your host Brad Owens and with me today I have someone that's played a gigantic influence on me and how I've how I've approached my career. Um, he currently runs a firm that's on the smaller side focused on hrrecruitment Mr. John bernaov its hello sir.
00:29.62
John Bernatovicz
Well Brad It's ah quite the introduction I didn't know I meant that much to you I knew we were close friends but man not night now you make that that's pressureful. Next time I got to buy lunch for you Next time we're together for all those kind words.
00:38.89
Brad Owens
And now see when I hit those points in my career where I'm like who should I call and ask this question like your name just yet. It's the first thing that pops up. So yes I appreciate everything and thanks for coming on. Why don't you give everyone. A little bit of info about yourself about your background so that they can understand a little bit more about where your perspective's coming from.
00:56.47
John Bernatovicz
Yeah, awesome brad! Thanks! So I think the reason why Brad had us on the show and I say us because it's just not me excited to have a firm named willery named after my kids have a will and a mallory so that's a pretty cool story in our journey. 13 years in the recruitment staffing space and we evolved into consulting as well and so at willery on the staffing side. We do direct hire and temporary placement support for clients typically mid-size employers are our Target Market customer and we're placing all range of employee size or all ranges of positions in hrm payroll. So we've placed interns and admin all the way up to chros and that's been pretty cool then we evolved a number of years ago and added a. Advisory and technology consulting practice where we do a lot of work on the hr and payroll strategy in compliance as well as a heavy play in the technology space on all things hr tech and so that that's been really cool I I am also excited to be on the other side of the mic having brad interview me I.HostA podcast called hr like a boss and it's been a really enriching and such a blessed experience for me I've written a book called hr like a boss as well. That'll be released I'm hoping in the summer by schrm books and then we'll have a lot of other things wrapped all around that. But at the end of day. It's about.
02:16.97
John Bernatovicz
Ah, helping people making a positive impact through the lens of Hr and taking on that responsibility that people have and really leveraging that opportunity to make a true difference. Not only on the employees that you serve but the businesses that you work for and the communities that you're living in.
02:30.22
Brad Owens
So in short Absolutely killing it I Love it. So The tagline of this show. The people ideas and tech that are transforming the industry I feel like your firm in particular and what I know about its history has been. Through a bit of a technology roller coaster going back and forth with maybe how you're running it what you're running and on what you're using hit me with a little backstory here about your shifts and then I'm curious to hear you know, kind of the why behind those shifts when it comes to technology.
03:05.41
John Bernatovicz
Yeah, sure. So first and foremost when we start off it was just me so it was a lot of I'll call it just email and phone and Linkedin Applications back then using them to the best of our ability as we started to grow we put in kind of the leading.
03:15.52
Brad Owens
Yeah.
03:23.37
John Bernatovicz
But the time applicant tracking system for a staffing firm which is bullhorn and that that went successful for a period of time and then we got this unique outreach from a company called sendouts. Which was again very specific for our industry and had that I'll call it that client relations management side of the the application as well as then the Ats and traditional aspects of that. Well as it would would be bullhorn ended up buying sendouts so we found our way back to becoming a bullhorn client.
03:49.79
Brad Owens
I have.
03:55.69
John Bernatovicz
So that was the first I'll call it 1012 years of our technology migration and then as we've grown and as our needs have changed. We put in a a specific sales and marketing crm inside of our business that platform doesn't have any applicant tracking tools. So we just recently transitioned to. Again, another niche provider called laxo that's kind of ah ah a I'll call it a rising star based upon their Ceo and some of the platform expertise that they have around some of their machine learning ai and just that that I'll call it that candidate ah relationship management tool that we did not. Or did not see the value inside of our our existing platform so've been a loxo for six to nine months it's been a good experience. We feel laxo is more aligned as far as firm wide and culture to who we are. They're smaller kind of upstart. We understand the aspirations of their leadership and where they're going and. And and and we had it. We had a really fine experience with bullhorn we just I think they outgrew us or vice versa and it just felt like the right transition for us to make and my my staffing team has been really happy with it and we're looking at ways to integrate it further within our I'll call it hr tech stack and our applicant tracking and business tech stack. That's probably to me the most challenging part of these new age systems Apis sound really cool and they're easy to spell but they're very difficult to make them work and a lot of the standard middlewares that are there like zapier and whatnot that that claim these things that they can do well that that helps to a point. But.
05:31.85
John Bernatovicz
There's typical further integration that we're looking for and sometimes for firm our sides. It's hard to make the investment and making all those systems tie together in a way that you feel like no one has to duplicate any data entry and so we have to make some compromises in that regard. But that's been our journey and I think as a technology consulting firm. We've really taken our own advice in assessing and evaluating that system having a good team around us to implement them and then the last thing I'd say is we're we're big on. Ah, stabilizing the application first then optimizing and transforming it kind of taking that journey with the technology and that ah you can't build upon something without a good foundation. So we're we're in that process now and then we can optimize it to leverage some of the different tools and then transform it like how we do business is based upon. How the technology is built not necessarily how we want to do business inside of our organization.
06:25.90
Brad Owens
So how have how has the internal change management gone because I know a lot of recruiting firm owners and when I went to things like the s a conference and Asa and so they ah. Everyone's like what's the new tech. What's the new applicant track system that I have to use. Yeah there, there's this cool shiny stuff and great. But and they change so fast. They don't really get to that optimized point that you're talking about. But how has the internal change management been switching around have you had much. Um. Pushback heavy had your relatively easy adoption. How has that been.
07:00.57
John Bernatovicz
Yeah I would say definitely and all all 4 of those implementations I'm thinking about it right? So we went from from bullhorn to send out send out some bullhorn so those were 3 implementations and now this this last one. We. We had a very engaged team interested in in leveraging the kind of more modern-based technology so that they they were interested. They were involved in the buying decision. They were a very important part of the implementation. So that part of it from a change management standpoint it was it was they were willing participants. They wanted us to make the change. Ah, we we built some? Ah I'll call it some some rails around that implementation to increase our chances of success. Ah based upon just the consultation we give from a consulting perspective just kind of taking our own advice doesn't mean we haven't tripped and fell and a couple things didn't work out the way that we expected them to. But. By planning and preparing over communication proper project management I think we've been able to mitigate some of the risks that are associated with implementing new systems and being overly communicative and inclusive with the people that are infected by it. Luckily in our size firm. It's it's it's less than two handfuls. So we're not talking about 1000 people or a 100000 people and some of the clients that you're serving brad but so so that scope of ah the scope of impact is much smaller. But I think the change management philosophies are still the same evaluating where you think the roadblocks are.
08:29.14
John Bernatovicz
Preparing for some of the politics that might come along with it. Someone might be upset about a lost piece of functionality and just understanding you kind of have to take the good with the bad and and we've experienced that with this this latest.. There's been some really good improvements and there've been some things like hey wait a second we liked how. Our old application did this and this new one doesn't do it that Way. So we've had we've had to evolve in that regard. But my team through our leader director of Staffings Expertise and tutelage as well as some outside support have really have really managed that change in a way that again. It's been effective I'm not going to say it's been a non-event because that's that's unfair to say no change in technology is but they're being more efficient with their job and the tools we've been able to leverage things inside of that to better serve our candidates and clients than we had previously.
09:04.54
Brad Owens
Sure yeah.
09:16.15
Brad Owens
What is something that you feel like is a feature of that that is making their jobs easier. What is part of that that you're like oh man I can't believe we haven't had this for so long.
09:27.65
John Bernatovicz
Yeah, the integration on the I'll call. The Canda experience has been significantly better in our regards and our our chance to leverage technology inside of that where in prior worlds it was really a manualbased process for us to communicate on events to people. And now we can really do that in an automated format through some of the workflows and the automation that are built inside of that and we're also able to leverage some of their texting platforms to to open up that line of communication in a more automated way to candidates because some love to get a phone call. That's me I'm old school some prefer an email I hate email. So wouldn't be me and some love texting. We all know next will be some sort of chatting through social media platforms and everything else, but we're we're just taking kind of 1 step at a time and I think that candidate experience and our ability to automate that and be more. In communication with our our our active candidates our our candidates that are in the pipeline or even some of our our our non-active candidates just keeping them informed of what's going on and and our willaryy marketplace.
10:32.80
Brad Owens
Sure keeping everyone warm makes sense to me so where do you feel like if you had unlimited money unlimited budget limited people. What is the current pain point of this tech stack. That you would try and solve first.
10:51.74
John Bernatovicz
Yeah I hadn't edit before Brett it would definitely be on the integrations between our various platforms I've been selling technology for 27 years now and I've gone through this evolution of how how the world evolves from. Best in-class niche provider to fully integrated. You know one application does it all back to best in class and and back and forth and and what I've seen that's worked the best is is is finding some cornerstone technologies but then really getting into those niche service providers. They just do a better job. Because they're in that space and that's what they do. That's all they're focused on in the example of Locke. So. That's it's a great example. However, it creates some inefficiency because our crm sales application needs to talk to that that ats needs to talk to our accounting system. Have ah a completely different consulting practice that that runs on a different platform so just getting all those systems to integrate better with each other in some seamless format and it to be affordable for us to make it happen so that we're not duplicating a bunch of entry or we're not missing something a bill rate being incorrect the client not getting billed. Because the applications aren't connected together or someone having the wrong keystroke and the hourly rates one thirty instead of $13 and twenty five cents those are all things that have happened once or twice before that we had to fix and so that that would be the number 1 thing for my perspective that I feel like as a small business.
12:09.87
Brad Owens
Right.
12:22.14
John Bernatovicz
We don't have endless amounts of technology investment budget and we have to meld these things together into the best of our ability.
12:29.36
Brad Owens
Sure so that's talking about flow of data I mean some there is 1 piece of data that maybe all the systems need and then there's another piece of data that none of them might need. So yeah, it's it's very interesting to see what some organizations have decided is like this is what. We're going to stake everything on this has to be integrated. This is perfect and then for others they're okay with that swivel chair experience. So yeah, it's interesting to hear directly from you about what's kind of the pain point around that. Ah, what do you feel like let's get outside the tech stack here for a minute. Let's think about. In generalities of the recruiting industry period. What do you feel like is well here I'm gonna i'mnna give you a little bit of different question because I've asked this question of like everyone but I I want to get your take specifically here. What should. The recruiting industry be doing more of today that you're surprised they're not.
13:31.93
John Bernatovicz
Yeah, think I think at at the end of the day to me. It's about helping clients for us fill the open positions that they have to the best of our abilities as quickly as possible and I think in my opinion there. There's a disconnect that happens with. Some clients where we maybe feel as if we're in conflict with them as opposed to not in support of them and to me it's an odd thing for them to hire us and in some cases there is a contingent aspect to it or we don't get paid until we do it and they're trying to protect their budget. Really feel like there's there's an avenue of synergy in Kumbaya. Ah I'll call it between a client and a recruiting firm that we can all align on that we're in this together at the end of the day. What I tell clients is that we want to make sure you fill the job with the best possible candidate if it's ours. Great. If. It's your own great if. It's from another firm that's fine too. But let's just be open and communicative and align on that common goal and let's stay in communication about it I think that getting ghosted by candidates getting ghosted by clients that sucks it just it doesn't feel good for anybody and you kind of. You don't know you start running around and telling your stories a lot of different times that maybe things are not necessarily true. You over analyze every email you send or everything that you talk to a hiring manager about when in ah and actuality it's just they usually don't have time or they've gone on to the next thing and and we're no longer important to them because they've filled that job.
15:08.13
John Bernatovicz
To me that just doesn't feel right in the spirit of that relationship and partnership because six months from now they may need us again for a more important hire or 1 they've had a hard time filling or even worse for that hiring manager they might lose his or her job and guess what they need. They need our support to help them find another one. So then our last experience with them is like wait a second you ghosted me and that didn't feel good and now you're calling me because you need help that that never feels good in the spirit of relationship to me. It's ah it's about not an equal amount of deposits and withdrawals. But there's got to be some level of equity inside of that otherwise it feels like. Ah, you, you could be getting used and in in our space. We. We have our team cares a ton about helping our clients and our candidates they they really do and I think that distinguishes us in the market and we're devoted to the hrpayrollcommunity I mean those are our people and so we really want to build those relationships and I think. And think overall everybody could do a better job in that recruiters can do a better job not sending them any any candidate just so they can get an invoice sent out. That's not good and then clients should be. You know, open and communicative and honest about the progress that they're making. And if we all act like big boys and girls then my guess is we'll get more done and we'll enjoy it and along the way.
16:24.43
Brad Owens
What you mentioned there I've I've heard put by another firm leader as they never want to feel like they're the grudge by like they don't want to be like the last resort fine I guess we'll call this recruiting firm. No one wants to be that person that they get a phone call from and says. I guess I have to use you on this one like that's not what we want and to your point this goes back to building good relationships and that's not something that automation or technology or even Ai or anything like that is going to truly build a good relationship. Can do things like keep people updated. It can do things like keep people warm for you by saying hey we haven't heard from you in a while give me a call or something like that. It can't build that relationship. What have you found successful in. Building those client side relationships is there any advice that you'd give some young and upcoming recruiter.
17:26.20
John Bernatovicz
Yeah I think the first thing is and I mentioned it before I think societally things have changed I'm old now or middle aged at least and my my experience I can say I remember when I first got email on my computer right? and was like my god what is this thing. Seems neat and then the next thing I know five years later it's what consumes a lot of people's time and energy and so I built relationships just meeting people for coffee or calling them on the phone or having lunch with them or going to a sporting event together or having that fellowship and camaraderie. And then email came along and then texting came along and then social media came along and that requirement to build that 1 ne-on one relationship with you brad or hiring manager a or b changed and. I think that you can do an okay job. You can supplement your relationship building through these social media platforms and you can showcase to so many people that you're writing a book or that you got a new dog or whatever the case might be that happened in your life. But in this nothing like that 1 on 1 rapport that you have with a human being. And the fact that you can create a connection with someone like you and I have like you and I remember meeting you at disrupt hr and I was like that dude's really cool and he's good at presenting and we then became friends and I feel blessed to have you in my life and now I'm on this podcast and I don't think that would have happened if we hadn't met at disrupt hr we probably could have.
18:55.72
John Bernatovicz
Had a relationship through email and phone but it just was different in that individual connection and community that we were able to create through our fellowships. So I I would say to a a newer recruiting manager sales rep at a recruitment firm is once a week call someone that you care about or you want to care about and take them out to lunch. Buy them a cup of coffee even if it's virtual just build a rapport with them get to know them find about their family their kids their personal interest. What makes them tick and I still believe that people buy from people that they like. And I think it's easier to like someone when you really get to know them as supposed to what you're seeing just on social media or through-mail exchange.
19:39.60
Brad Owens
Yeah John I don't know if we would have talked a whole lot if you hadn't been. What was it that year ah you were ons stage. You started a flash mob of macaina that was it yeah had the entire auditorium doing the macaina which I thought was amazing.
19:46.76
John Bernatovicz
Yes, it.
19:53.27
John Bernatovicz
There were a few there were few that were not because they were looking at me like I was a total idiot mostly those men out there that don't like to dance I'm not gonna stereotype him. But yeah I just posted something when I got my book signed or it's not signed when the publishing agreement got done and and sent the manuscript to sherm books I did this stupid.
19:54.94
Brad Owens
Ah, with the co-founder of disrupted sure.
20:12.49
John Bernatovicz
I I texted my marketing director because she's been so helpful with me and then I was like maybe I should share them with the world that I just did that and I got so many cool like that was awesome I had a few people like really ragging on me like 1 of my buddies with a text ring take that down. You look like an idiot up like perfect I'm gonna make more of those.
20:23.32
Brad Owens
But. Bright, you'll get remembered. That's amazing. All right I want to respect your time here. So I know we only have just a few minutes left before we wrap things up. What do you feel like will happen to the recruiting industry as a whole in 10 years from now. What's it going to look like.
20:47.66
John Bernatovicz
Yeah I think what? what ended up happening in in my my expert opinion and having done this now for almost twenty years is I think that we will be challenged by more and more automations. You. You mentioned the word ai machine learning those technologies will continue to advance themselves beyond where we are today I think certain aspects of the job that are somewhat tedious and difficult will be automated. But I also believe that it will still require. Someone really sharp and savvy and well-connected to help a client determine if this is the right cultural fit if they're going to be able to do the jobs that need to be done. They're going to be able to assess from a unique I'll call it passive candidate pool where I think a lot of the automations will help the. The the large majority of people that want to leverage those to get known. But there's going to be still a significant number of of ah great candidates that I would say employers are going to have a hard time finding on their own because they just can't work searches like search firms can and and I think that. There there will be ah a higher value on that. So what that tells me is there'll probably be a little lower volume. There'll be a higher premium potentially on the pricing for a recruiter so I see fees going up and then I would say I hope.
22:14.34
John Bernatovicz
Last but not least that those relationships with those clients and recruiters improve because the the value is seen and and the need for it.
22:23.72
Brad Owens
I can get behind fees going up I think that will be amazing for everyone that sounds like a perfect thing. Let's do that. Well, that's perfect John ah I appreciate you taking the the time outs to ah to talk with us today to share your insights to share your your past experiences I know there's. A lot of folks out there that feel probably just the exact same of like man. These technologies are cool I really wish they integrated together. You know this none of this is really going to replace creating a relationship which is the most valuable thing I can do so is this really that important the whole point of this is to bring up the ideas that hey look y'all. You're not alone. Everyone's. Trying to deal with the exact same stuff. But everyone's going to approach it a little bit differently and I feel like with you and your firm and your small niche that you got so part of I think it's perfect for your use case I think it's amazing I know they've got a good leader and they're going to point them in the right direction. You know someone who's got high volume crazy trying to put 20 people at a call center tomorrow kind of thing they might have something completely different. But I think for your use case I think this sounds awesome I appreciate you sharing your insight where would you like people to find you if they want to hear more from John.
23:33.23
John Bernatovicz
Yeah, awesome that Twitter's John Bernaovvi last name is b e r n a t o v I c z there's no spelling quiz for that. You can also find me on Linkedin and then my company willery is WILLORY and last but not least you can Google atra like a boss.
23:41.79
Brad Owens
Or schffen.
23:52.91
John Bernatovicz
Ah, book will be released in the summertime and I really appreciate Brad our relationship and your continued thought leadership inside of the recruiting technology space. Keep it up. You're doing an awesome job.
24:04.14
Brad Owens
Absolutely man I appreciate that and ah for those of you that want to find some more from this podcast. It is transformrec recruiting dot com feel free to send me an email I'm Brad at transformformrecruiting dot com or you could do hello at bradowins.com. So look forward to hearing from everyone. Thanks so much for stopping in yet again and we'll catch up the next one