What's Your Culture and How Are You Training Recruiters with Chris Mader
Today we sit down with an industry veteran and hear what he's found builds successful sales and recruiting teams. You won't want to miss this one!
Find Chris here: https://www.linkedin.com/in/chrismadermta/
Transcript auto generated from content above
Brad Owens
Welcome back. Everyone to another episode of the transform recruiting podcast I'm your host as always Brad Owens and with me today. Well before I get into that before I get into who I have the reason who I have is on this show is because. The tagline for this show has always been the people ideas in tech that are transforming the recruiting industry I feel like you have to kind of be in the industry for a while to truly understand how it's transforming because you only know one way otherwise well the person I've got today's got some history in recruiting that you're gonna hear about that I think brings a fan. Hastic perspective for you to hear from today so without further ado I don't want to keep you in silence. So Mr Chris Mader welcome to the show appreciate you coming on. Well I give everyone just a little bit of an intro there of what they're about to expect from you. But why don't you fill everyone in on.
00:49.10
Chris Mader
I'm excited to be here. Brad thanks for the opportunity to talk to you today.
00:58.44
Brad Owens
Your background kind of your perspective of where you're coming from.
01:00.14
Chris Mader
Sure thing the the short version of a long story is I've been in the staffing industry for 27 years I started at a very small it t staffing firm in 9096 called New Boston systems that was rebranded sapphire technologies that was later acquired by ronstodt. Um, so my total tenure at that company was 20 years so I saw a company of 30000000 gro to about one point four billion in the us so that was quite an interesting ride. Um, upon leaving ronstad I went to locum tenants sector so I helped the company grow from I don't know 150000000 to 250000000 before I left.
01:24.42
Brad Owens
Oh yeah.
01:34.40
Chris Mader
Um I had a short stint at a $20000000 it an engineering firm with an old friend total tech and then my last staffing role I was the chief revenue officer for health care it company optimum healthcare care it and we were exceeding probably one hundred and ten hundred and twenty million dollars last year. So. Um, I've seen you know a few different professional sectors and staffing to say the least and you know I was working at Ron's side I get to to go the Netherlands quite a bit and and collaborate with my colleagues over there as well and have interacts with the board. So yeah, really interesting career and staffing this far.
02:06.15
Brad Owens
You have seen it. That's Fantastic. So We obviously as an industry go through Highs lows everyone has a trough.. There might be really hot industries. It might be really cold industries but in and amongst all of that. There's always those underlying issues this ilying. Things that are affecting the business. So for you, What do you feel like from your perspectives currently affecting the industry. You know what are those things that might be below the surface.
02:34.50
Chris Mader
Yeah I mean there's there's always internal and external factors right? when it comes to these staffing firms and so you know the external factors 2023 was it was a tough year in many sectors some better than others and there's some optimism for 2024 which is exciting. Um, but I think the internal factors are the most interesting because to me all the staffing companies I worked for or collaborated with through the years it always comes down to one thing which is leadership and you know do do the employees that come in the recruiters the salespeople to back office employees did the leader create a culture. Um, of psychological safety and growth and you know a good mix between strategy strategy and execution a good mix between humility and confidence. So when I think about staffing firms that succeed over the long haul. Um, you know one guy I worked for a long time ago. Dan Foley who ran ronstadt now runs curate partners I used the Peter Drucker line of strategy eats culture for our culture eat strategy for breakfast. So Dan was always very focused on culture. And as a result I've always been focused on culture and I've always advised my clients to be focused on culture.
03:40.52
Brad Owens
I Love it. So now you've got everyone sitting here thinking? Oh no, what's what's my culture. So if you were sitting in these leaders shoes and you now know based on what you're doing now probably the next best thing that they should be looking into doing.
03:47.66
Chris Mader
Yeah, yeah.
03:59.54
Brad Owens
Where would you point them? what would be their next step.
03:59.73
Chris Mader
Well yeah, it's it's um, you know I'm a big development guy coaching mentoring developing and I used the phrase psychological safety earlier. You know my belief in leadership and management is you know people nobody wants to be micromanaged in in staffing.
04:08.24
Brad Owens
Are.
04:17.31
Chris Mader
But everybody likes structure so leaders should provide provide the proper expectations and structure for their employees and then ultimately create a plan of you know, coaching and development to develop their skills because nobody takes a job to leave a job but if you look at Sherm. And you look at the statistics and data around why people leave a job 84% of people in the us say um, you know my manager creates a lot of unnecessary stress for me and 57% of people actually quit their job because of their boss so you know. If you're a Ceo and owner of a staffing firm or a senior leader you need to be focused on not just your minor league system of your individual contributors that are producing well but who's the next level leaders and what are we doing to develop their skills because just because they were great on a staffing dust doesn't make them a great leader. We all know the competencies change. We step into a leadership role right? But the the leader's job is to make their team better. Not just get the work done. So it's you know leadership by definition is getting work done through other people. So yeah.
05:19.90
Brad Owens
Sure, Okay, well there you have it everyone if you're sitting there worried about oh my gosh am I creating that kind of culture or not. There's your steps. Let's start there at least? um so we have places that have we'll just say good cultures.
05:33.88
Chris Mader
Sure.
05:34.82
Brad Owens
There are places that are fantastic to work. They're growing. They're doing crazy amounts of business. What are they about to face you already had mentioned that you know 2023 was what it was well. We'll go with in the past and so we all know what happens during holiday time in the recruiting industry. Ah but 2024
05:50.44
Chris Mader
Yeah, well, it's funny so I'll even comment on the end of the year I've always made the joke that you know it's hard to get people on the phone the week of Thanksgiving it's hard to set client appointments in December with the holidays and and getting clients to commit because they don't know their budgets and.
05:52.56
Brad Owens
What's your outlook. What are you feeling.
06:07.53
Chris Mader
I've always challenged my sales team and even the recruiting team to say but don't be afraid to ask the extra question you know, like what if you know if a client says hey Chris give me a call in January I want to get my budget I'll say well let's go ahead and pretend that the budget gets approved um, what is that going to look like for you like what could what could that mean for you. And the client usually says well we're going to hire x amount of people or these are the roles we're looking for and I would then say okay, well proactively let me start that search without a commitment and I try to get ahead of it right? I'm trying to win the business before the rec comes out I've always said that more than half of the business and staffing happens before the actual job order gets sent to anybody. So. You know, trying to pre-fill business trying to pre-wind business get exclusivity on business prior to it getting approved I always tried to to play that angle but to answer. Yeah yeah, go ahead? Yeah yeah.
06:48.84
Brad Owens
And you know I agree with you there I agree with you because when I when I was leading so I led a firm for about 10 years and leading that firm I always just tell people I'm like getting checks signed is the goal of our business but our business is building relationships. But relationships around the holiday time is the best possible time to do that because people are literally a little slower they they are ah it's probably a lot easier to build those relationships around that time. So I agree with you completely.
07:16.33
Chris Mader
Yeah, yeah, yeah, and I'm glad you said that because I'll segue on that point so you know I started my own company mta consultancy about seven months ago where I advised I do consulting advisory work and executive coaching for a lot of staffing firms and. I talk about the algorithm for trust I've created this kind of what I call the um um I have a degree in mathematics. So you know, forgive the math nerd comment around you know algorithm for trust so algorithm for trust starts with 2 things and this is this can be done with any human being right? So whether it's a client somebody in your personal life.
07:37.30
Brad Owens
No no I Love it.
07:48.82
Chris Mader
Somebody you want to build a relationship with that starts with relationship like do I like this person do I enjoy spending time with this person. Um, you know and just kind of building that rapport the second component is competency. Do I see this person as somebody that's smart somebody that can help me somebody I want to spend my time with those are the first 2 pieces. If you can get a client to kind of like you and build that report and relationship and then the competency level around hey here's what I can bring to the table. It gets to the third step which is ultimately trust or you know the intimacy of building trust intimacy. Is when a client really opens up the kimono and says hey like I'm willing to tell you my business problem actually is Chris I've talked to a lot of people about this. But here's my situation and once you get that level of intimacy with a customer The fourth component is is mutual risk taking which is to say okay I now understand the problem I have a solution for you. Mr. Mrs Customer and let's take this risk together and I'm not going to let you fail right? So when I think about you know that that when you talk about relationship. It really is. We're talking about here is trust right? Do I trust you and most of the time in staffing engagements. I mean even a single placement is ah is a multiple of a thousand you know tens of thousands of dollars never mind a national account where they're spending a hundred two hundred three hundred million a year with their vendors right? or or even a billion dollars some of these companies. So it's really about do I trust you and so when I talk to salespeople and recruiters and leaders.
09:14.20
Chris Mader
I Encourage the leaders to build that trust with their team I encourage the salespeople recruits to build that trust with their candidates and their clients in that manner.
09:20.93
Brad Owens
I love that one? Ah what I want to see the actual formula. Um, you'd mentioned schrm before. So um, this is probably 1 of the weirdest related topics that I've never gone into in those podcasts but my very first podcast venture ever was.
09:32.89
Chris Mader
Yeah, yeah.
09:38.47
Brad Owens
Super successful in the itunes business world for um, literally my title was called the culture coach and I was talking to companies about building culture and about hiring and about small business hiring and that kind of thing and as a part of that I got to speak engagement with sherm. That's where the tie-in comes from.
09:53.61
Chris Mader
Yeah, great.
09:56.70
Brad Owens
Um, and mine was a formula for um, the quality of hire because that's it's been such a very very difficult thing for people to quantify so I came up with a formula for that. So fellow math nerd. Love it. Um, now that's fantastic I Appreciate you digging into that.
10:02.34
Chris Mader
Yeah, cool. Well yeah, and and and on top of that too. So you talk about like how do you measure? Quality. So I try to build out leadership scorecards again as a consultant for my for my staffing clients a leadership scorecard can be measured things like the leadership competency.
10:16.50
Brad Owens
Ah, because I do think that god.
10:32.42
Chris Mader
Right? Um, it could be how do they coach and develop their people do they have like a coaching tree where you can clearly see that the people they hire and train and develop are getting promoted or moving into lateral roles or diagonal roles within the organization. But I've always found an interesting stat when you talk to ceos of staffing firms I'll talk about Attrition. And I'm like I don't want to talk about attrition I Want to talk about voluntary attrition because if you're managing people up or out That's okay, but if people are quitting. That's when we have a problem so you know I really try to pin in on are people leaving you or are you making the choice you know with with um.
10:57.76
Brad Owens
Right.
11:06.39
Chris Mader
Your staff members that maybe aren't making it are we managing them up and out or is it. You know you're a victim of people are leaving you because there's an issue inside your business.
11:11.12
Brad Owens
That if I was able to develop a sales leader that went on to be a I don't know a C O O another organization like I'd be impressed with that like good for you can go for it. Yeah, so.
11:20.63
Chris Mader
Right? right? right? Well and that's you know and and we have a mutual friend a gentleman who worked with it. Ron Stud Justin Priest and you think about these coaching trees right? I mean I came from a very very fortunate coaching tree. You know I talk about new boss and systems and sapphre technology. The people that came the people that were above me that trained and developed me were Dan Fully Curate Partners Bob Dickey Meic his health care solutions Tracy Fiat Ron Stu Greg Netland you know the Videoer Env chairman Bruce wiiderberg now at health care it leader co o o you know it's like. I got to work with so Mark eldre at ah at Alku I got to work with so many people that understood the playbook of hiring great people spending time with them developing their skills and not microing them right? really developing them so they could solve their own problems in real time with their customers and candidates. And then just winding them up every morning and letting them go do their job.
12:16.44
Brad Owens
Yeah I love I'm making notes to myself here because there's there's other things we need to talk about it I Can't forget to ask you this question? Um, but that's that's amazing I I totally agree I think we're on the exact same page from a coaching perspective I I think that's.
12:22.30
Chris Mader
Sure.
12:30.72
Chris Mader
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
12:32.44
Brad Owens
Insane. There's not a lot of people that think that that way so I appreciate it? Um, so in your role right now with what you're doing with the sales sides of things um, sales and recruiting. That's always been a um, an interesting nut to crack and there's not a lot of us that have really. Figured out how to do that. So when you are helping coach these sales leaders and just for topic of conversation for the podcast. Let's keep it on the recruiting leaders. What do you feel like some of the the large gaps are that they're facing.
13:05.33
Chris Mader
Well interestingly so I would say from a recruiting perspective. You know the the tools and technology the top of the funnel. Let's start with top of the funnel because I think that's the biggest challenge I think recruiting once you get a candidate That's that's somewhat warm.
13:15.35
Brad Owens
Okay.
13:24.41
Chris Mader
The beauty of our industry is it hasn't really changed the whole heck of a lot right? because it's It's what we said earlier, it's about building the relationship and the rapport having competency in your in. Whatever your whatever your business is whether it's healthcare or it to your engineering or what have you right? So I think the biggest challenge in recruiting is top of funnel and we all know.
13:25.98
Brad Owens
Right? yeah.
13:42.29
Chris Mader
Shortage I mean locum tenants is an example we are currently short 40000 providers in this country in 10 years we're going to be short 120000 providers in this country so you know massive challenge in recruiting and what comes first checking to the egg right? Do we want to get the job record the person. Um. You know, obviously both is the answer right? Can I guess the can the chicken cook the egg that would be amazing but I'll tell you one 1 thing about recruiting that I found fascinating I did get to meet fritz goldsmitting who is the founder of ronst so fritz goldsmitting is a gentleman who used to ride resumes on his bicycle around Amsterdam.
13:59.25
Brad Owens
Sure.
14:11.96
Brad Owens
Um, oh.
14:17.74
Chris Mader
You know in 65 and built a company that's now exceeding $30000000000 in sales and I met him and he's one of the 150 richest people in the world. We talked about ai. We talked about you know, technology and job boards. We talked about all the things that people in recruiting talk about but what was interesting I said you know silver bullet advice for its like what can you tell me as a staffinged recruiting leader. You know about the future of this industry and here's what he told me he said Chris in his dutch accent I won't try to do it. He goes. Um, you know nothing will ever change when it comes to the intuition of a good recruiter. He goes that still matters and that's always going to matter and so I found it to be fascinating right? so.
14:49.89
Brad Owens
Down.
14:56.74
Chris Mader
Top of funnel activity. So how do you leverage technology in your system to generate leads and so you know I know in my previous businesses and recruiting. We had a twenty four seven operation where recruiters would come in at the normal 7 8 nine in the morning they do their job through the day and then we would outsource sourcing to India Koal Impur other countries. To do some sourcing for us so we came in the morning we already had some warm leads to call on or try to hunt down. Um, so I think about I think the biggest challenge to recruit is just getting that candidate in the door because everybody in their mother's calling them right? There's seventeen eighteen thousand staffing firms in this country. So when I talk to recruiting leaders. Locomm tenants is an example I'll say hey how many how many locomm tenants firms are there. You're like I don't know like about 200 how many nursing companies are there about 600? Okay, there's 800 companies calling your candidates every day is is how you have to look at it. So I then say well how are you different and I'm a huge Simon Senate guy start with why you know. People make decisions based on how they feel not just the logic. So if you're calling a candidate. My advice has always been. Don't just spew you know your your feature and benefits of the company tell me why I should work with you. You know? Brad why do I want to work with you if you're a recruiter at at a certain company and.
16:05.27
Brad Owens
Here.
16:12.60
Chris Mader
And you want to elicit an emotional response from that person because you only have I think the the data is you have 27 seconds on a cold call to get somebody's attention right? So you know? yeah.
16:18.13
Brad Owens
I was just about to ask you like so now let's this be an awesome thought experiment because I used to do this in my recruiter as well. So you have the first thirty seconds of that phone call to make this person. Love and trust you, what do you say to him.
16:29.49
Chris Mader
Yeah, yeah, if I were if I were to call you so you'll laugh says this is a pitch I've used in recruiting I actually would say hey Brad Chris made a calling from Xyz company how you doing today. Great hey I have a question for you like your boss and people are like what I'm like do you like your boss because I know statistically that 70% of people don't. So I know 7 out of 10 times. They're gonna be like actually I don't and I'll say you want a new one and they're like who I'm sorry who are you again, but I have their attention right? So everybody yeah everybody remembers Glenn Gary Glenn Ross Abc always be closing but what they don't remember which I teach in my sales and recruiting classes is a ida.
16:57.66
Brad Owens
Ah, you've done something different. Yeah.
17:08.37
Chris Mader
Attention interest decision action attention. Do I have it right? interest are you interested and once you get to that then you can start to bake the relationship and you can start to schedule a call or a future firm commitment. You know, based on your sales process to see if you can actually get to you know, maybe. Building that relationship and potentially placing somebody but like you have to get their interest I mean there's there's another phrase I use 10% difference a hundred percent better like you have to say something a little bit different. These people are getting the same calls the same emails from everybody. So why are you different.
17:39.75
Brad Owens
I Really like that one So I'm not going to get into strategy I'm not a recruiter anymore I got to keep that in mind I'm not recruited I Just get so nerdy about this stuff I couldn't talk about an enough of my day job. So I literally started a podcast to be able to talk about it. That's just in insane all right.
17:50.23
Chris Mader
Yeah, that's great. Yeah yeah.
17:59.32
Brad Owens
Um, so I want to keep an eye on time because I want to respect your time and respect our listeners time here. But um, tell us a little bit about what you are currently doing how people can find you because this should have given them just a little dey tiny bit of excitement to want to get in touch with you.
18:16.72
Chris Mader
Yeah, no I appreciate that. So yeah, my my company's called Mta Consultancy and when I started my firm. You have to come up with ah with a name right to get incorporating the state and. I got to be honest with you. It took me about 5 minutes My My College Baseball Coach's name is Boyd Coffey and we lost him to cancer a few years ago but when I went to college at Rollins College in Florida he was my baseball coach. He had a big wooden sign over his desk. It said make the adjustment and I asked coach and my coach. What does that mean.
18:37.83
Brad Owens
E.
18:42.13
Chris Mader
And he's like Chris you know he was kind of ah a good old boy from the south in Tennessee and I wouldn't say like the most sophisticated guy but man he was a humble quiet soft spokenken but strong man and when he spoke you listened and make the adjustment I learned through my 4 years of college was anything in my life that wasn't going. Well. Was up to me and make the adjustment right? if I wasn't effectively communicating with my pitching staff as a catcher. You'd be like you know Chris you're going to make the adjustment how you talk to the seniors you know and so I learned it was on me and this is and this is an extension essentially of emotional intelligence lows of control these concepts where the outcomes in your life are based on what you do. What you don't do right? So what I started to do in my coaching business I learned that most of the people I coach. It's about behavior change. There's definitely some skills that need to be developed but a lot of times they have to change their behavior so make the adjustment mta consultancy. Is you know make the adjustment after my college baseball coach. But I really talk about the 1 or 2 behaviors that a recruiter a salesperson a leader wants to change in order to be more effective in their role and so I do these deep dives with them and sure I can do 3 60 reviews but I do 1 on one coaching and I really get to know the exact problem that that exact individual is challenged with. And build that personal connection through the algorithm for trust we talked about earlier and then really start to dig in and diagnose like what's the 1 issue. What's the 1 behavior you want to get better at because it actually takes 3 to six months minimum to change your behavior where you say it takes like twenty one days to make a break a habit. It takes like six months to change a behavior and you need a coach or somebody.
20:18.80
Chris Mader
Your manager you know a coach somebody that's guiding you through that process holding you accountable to the the behavior changes you want to make yeah sure yeah Mta Consultancy Dot Com is um, our website and obviously you can find me on Linkedin Chris Mader M A D E R or Mta Consultancy also has our.
20:23.51
Brad Owens
Oh I get perfect so where can they find you.
20:37.36
Chris Mader
Linkedin page as well.
20:38.49
Brad Owens
I'll make sure to include all of that in the description for this episode. So I mean this is a lot of fun to talk to you I Really appreciate your perspective I Really appreciate the kind of experience that you bring to it and even nice little tidbits for our recruiting leaders now to go out and have some conversations with their people. Ah, So thank you so much for for taking the time out and not very very welcome for everyone still listening. Thank you so much for tuning in I Hope that one was valuable for you I know that I now know the next question you're going to ask someone when you when you call them if they like their boss or not.
20:55.81
Chris Mader
No, really, it's great to be here today. Brad but thanks for the opportunity I really enjoyed it.
21:13.36
Brad Owens
Ah, that's ah, that's a good play to your strengths play to the play to the what what is it ah play the statistics right? Well perfect all right everyone if you want more episodes like this they are at transformrecruiting.com if you've got anyone to suggest or if you yourself are interested in coming and having a conversation and nerding out about recruiting. Ah, you can send an email to hello at Brad Owens Dot Com until next time I hope you all have a fantastic week and we'll talk soon.