Joshua Atkinson
Josh joins me today to talk about how he's helping the business world understand that the perceived gap between military service and the working world isn't exactly as large as we think it is.
Learn more from Josh here: https://www.linkedin.com/in/joshuajatkinson/
More episodes available at www.transformrecruiting.com
Full episode transcript below has been auto generated
Welcome everyone to another episode of the transformer recruiting podcast I'm your host as always Brad Owens but today I have the dancing the wonderful Mr. Josh Atkinson welcome sir
00:17.53
Joshua Atkinson
Sweet welcome Brad so awesome to get on your podcast you know? And yeah.
00:23.50
Brad Owens
Yeah I appreciate the dance moves. It's always the awkward part of when to do video interviews I'm like okay, it's just quiet for audio. Um, all right? So I the name of this podcast came about because I truly feel like 1 of the industries that's ripe for change is recruiting. Feel like we wanted to highlight on this show the tech the ideas. The people that are changing the focus of recruiting and I know you and I just had a chance to catch up just a little bit and I can already tell you are not only a person but you have the ideas that are that should inspire change within the recruiting industry. Ah, so before we dig into those I want to make sure people understand where you're coming from. So can you give everyone just a little brief elevator pitch background of yourself.
01:02.28
Joshua Atkinson
So no I but appreciate it Josh Atkinson I'm coming in to from Northern Virginia out here in bristo I was a a marine corps veteran served eleven and a half years on active duty everything from flying jets line on aircraft carriers special forces and in human intelligence and logistics and planning and a bunch of other fun stuff. So got to serve and do great things deployed twice to Afghanistan and then left the military got into construction project management government program consulting and and projects and then became an accidental entrepreneur ironically not trying to help veterans really learn what I learned about. You know why project manager it's a great career field and trying to bridge that divide between military and industry so we can help our recruiters and companies out there that want to do the right thing for veterans understand what the heck that means right? So excited to be here. Ah.
01:49.36
Brad Owens
Sure. Okay, yeah, awesome. Well I will say on behalf of my entire listeners up on myself. We appreciate that you did all of that. Thank you so much for doing that. Um, so let's just get right into it. So I Truly believe that in the recruiting industry and you already kind of mentioned it. Um, the term the idea of hey we recruit Veterans is very much pitched as a oh hey, here's a candidate Pool. We may not have thought of before so they want to go into it and they're like oh we're going to get all these new applicants for this stuff and then they have no idea what to do with them. Ah.
02:23.49
Joshua Atkinson
Yes.
02:25.50
Brad Owens
What have you seen high level from those organizations that may say recruiter friendly or we recruit veterans or whatever. What are some of the trends that you're seeing that just don't match up.
02:33.87
Joshua Atkinson
I think it'll start with the job post right? I think from the job post listing. It's already missing the Mark right? and I did a talk with city leaders in El Paso right and they're like we're trying to recruit first term veterans which means I've served for at least four to five years I've probably had up to 40 direct reports. And I was probably running full on leadership campaigns in some form of fashion getting shot at and I look at the job post and it's like under supervision drive a truck but really like by myself I need a babysitter to operate a single vehicle and you want me to apply to that with. Enthusiasm and passion. Ah sorry, no thanks I don't even want to apply but we're trying to hire veterans I was like so there's just this complete miss right? from the job post to the individual I talked to. Right? Or have even said hey you're retir you know on the senior level. You're a retired veteran that means I don't have to pay you as much because you have other benefits I mean so there's a lot of disrespect. There's a lot of just confusion. There's a lot of completely missing the mark you know I think on what a veteran is what a veteran brings to the table. Why it makes. A ton of business sense to hire veterans. But again when you have that conversation right? The dating matchmaker conversation between a recruiter and a single right trying to marry them to a job and you're like you don't even know what the heck I have or what I am and you're not pairing me well right? And and i.
04:03.92
Joshua Atkinson
I've used a term that recruiters like Ford observers right in the military. A for observer is given a targeting profile and if they see something that matches that target you pull the trigger hey boss I just saw exactly what you wanted fire right? The enemies come into the crosshairs pull the trigger and recruiters. To me, you're kind of the same thing and they're looking at targeted requirements given to them by a hiring manager to find something that looks like this and yet what they're looking for a veteran may or may not ever have right? and they may have a lot more so there's a language miss. There's just so much of like again, not for lack of want or care or desire. It's just it's a complete miss. Like 2 ships passing into the night right like just completely missing each other and then both are frustrated or the veteran gets hired and they start the job and then like this isn't what I really want right? So there's a gap on the veteran side not knowing who they are what they really want. There's a gap I think on the recruiter side that has no idea the true talent that they have in front of them.
04:48.60
Brad Owens
Are here.
04:58.87
Joshua Atkinson
So they can't even help them find the right seat on the bus right.
05:00.37
Brad Owens
Yeah, is a disconnect in expectations versus versus reality on both sides. Both sides completely. So we obviously need to do better. We need to have better programs in place better support in place better.
05:06.61
Joshua Atkinson
Correct correct complete.
05:19.40
Brad Owens
Javascript and his expectations. Whatever we can dream up this gigantic future of here's what it should be here's what we should be doing here's all this most awesome stuff if I think about the recruiting industry and the firms that I've run and everything it's typically those. 1 2 3 year people out of college. They just kind of fell into this job. They thought oh this seems kind of cool. They have no idea what they're doing how what would be like the first thing that you would do to help these newbies to really know that when they're going out saying that they are veteran friendly. What are some of the things that they need to keep in mind like what is just the quick hits that you would want them to know.
05:56.45
Joshua Atkinson
Ah so 3 main things you have to understand one know what the branches of the military service are right flat out right? know the difference between the Navy The Marine Corps the army the space force the coast guard and the air force right? like just understand that there's different branches and each branch has its own microculture that comes with it. To understand that it was between officer enlisted and warrant officer right? Go search it right? because every member of the military is going to fall into one of those 3 descriptors and all 3 of those descriptors come with certain understandings right? enlisted. Don't require a college degree. Although many have up to masters and doctorates right. Warn officers are kind of an inbetween many of them are subject matter experts right? They are the people you rely on in that field to have all the answers to the test right? They're advisors. They're consultants right? They're great at what they do and sometimes they're brutally honest to a fault right? So understand that that's what you get on the officer side. Every single person is a college graduate and they all have clearances right? I mean so you can just take that as understanding that says look the people in front of me come with at least this right in simple words you have blue collarar white collar and then light blue I guess if you want to call the waroffs are kind of the in between but some of your blue collllars are exceptionally educated right? They've been managers. At multiple levels I mean I have people that are enlisted with no college degree getting a pm p certification. Well that says you're supposed to be an experienced project manager. Well you are you know? so.
07:22.86
Joshua Atkinson
And think just understanding. You know those categories and then the last thing is called an m os or an Afsc air force specialty go or a military occupational specialty every person in the military is given a job title but that job title is only about 25 to 30% of what you do right.
07:37.79
Brad Owens
Are.
07:40.49
Joshua Atkinson
Because even if I'm a truck driver or a mechanic great I drive trucks. But I'm also then possibly the 12 squad leader which means I have twelve twenty Forty direct reports that work under me and as a part of that responsibility I'm making sure everyone's physically fit. Everyone's going to school. Everyone's room is clean, everyone's taking care of their families. You know their last will and testament are done like my responsibility as that expert in mechanics goes way beyond just doing that job and I think that's part of the bigger miss you know is that you're not just the job title. You are so much more and. Need to have a conversation. You know what did you do let me fully understand the responsibility. You had the level of responsibility you had so I can have a better conversation about is this a right fit for you. You know I think I I would start there for anyone looking to to hire veterans you know have a respectful conversation about what.
08:37.74
Brad Owens
Yeah, and I agree I think that the problem that we all face in our unconscious bias of just truly trying to put things in categories it it makes sense why we ended up here from an evolutionary perspective of.
08:38.57
Joshua Atkinson
A veteran is.
08:57.35
Brad Owens
Okay I have to really quick understand is this thing a cheetah or is this thing a possum like I really have to understand really fast. So it makes sense that as we progress we all want to be able to make quick decisions. We all get graded on our decision making and our quick decision making in whether it's in the field or if it's you know at some corporate event.
09:03.44
Joshua Atkinson
Ah, yep.
09:17.30
Brad Owens
We all get measured on our quick decision skills. So It makes sense that everyone would want to lean into a just a category just to be able to lump things really quickly into categories and say Boom Boom Boom Boom I'm ready to go like we all do it. We do the man woman we do on Race we do on sex we do on. Whatever. We all just like these easy categories to be able to lump people in and recruiters who are brand new to the field who are really just trying to prove themselves really fast. They want to be able to quickly identify and quickly just say all right category here interview push because they get graded on how quickly they're doing these things that it's just absurd.
09:51.93
Joshua Atkinson
It's through put yep.
09:55.61
Brad Owens
Um, so yeah, there might be some metric change that we need to do to Hol align with those types of goals of truly trying to be friendly to this type of demographic. Um, but yeah I agree with you. That's it just have a conversation people slow down have the.
10:11.30
Joshua Atkinson
Um, yeah.
10:14.26
Brad Owens
Respect to be able to actually answer the questions that these people are going to have to give them the information they're going to want on need to they're going to need to be interested in your specific job like they don't know.
10:25.20
Joshua Atkinson
Correct and I think it's just that there's a language difference. There's a huge language difference right? and um, one military acronyms What we call a job may not directly align to what the industry title is for that job if there even is a standard.
10:28.12
Brad Owens
How so.
10:38.11
Brad Owens
True.
10:40.33
Joshua Atkinson
Even in the military. The fact that if I say I'm a logisticistician and I do logistics every single person in the ring horse been through the exact same school. So if you're a logistics officer. You've all been through the exact same school with the exact same location and know exactly what that job description is no matter where you do it. But if I go to industry and say oh I'm a logistics professional. Okay, are you like robotics and Amazon fulfillment centers. Are you like there is no standard so we come out of the military thinking that every job tell if I say project manager when one near and dear to my heart. They're supposed to all be the same and they look taste tells feel the pay like it's all standardized and and the reality is that it's not. And the job title is really the bait you're using to get somebody to apply to a job because they think that's what it's supposed to look like so we create advertising right? Jobs a job title is a hot or not profile right to get somebody to say oh I think that's attractive I want to go learn more but there's no book standardization. So from a veteran's perspective. They're always standardized from your perspective. You know recruiter respective. They understand what that job is but you have to first define your terms like what am I going to do in that job. You know and from an experience standpoint a veteran isn't Goingnna have the traditional pedigree that you're gonna look for because I haven't worked in your world I've worked in a different world and. The terms don't align right? even project terms we you know call it a pandm plan of actions in milestones. Okay, that means nothing to a civilian we use work breakdown structures in the civil world same thing completely different term so I've had.
11:56.14
Brad Owens
Right.
12:13.17
Joshua Atkinson
Veterans with 30 years in saying I don't think I'd meet the 3 years of experience for for project management like you you have 30 years of experience doing project management. Why just because I don't speak the same language right? It's a terms problem I mean so yeah I just probably like to start.
12:16.25
Brad Owens
And.
12:25.78
Brad Owens
This so people who listen to this podcast for a while will know my bugaboo around applicant tracking systems and how they filter only on keywords I absolutely hate that because every single person you're describing right now even if they're a 1 Hundred percent fit for this job will get filtered out and get the dear John Letter immediately
12:47.90
Joshua Atkinson
Yeah, and this you know we talked about dating right? and and I use this I was a requirements developer for the military as a consultant for 5 years right? and part of the difficulty and I coach this to transitions to justing veterans as well is that. Ah, job title is a solution right? The hard skills are a solution but what is the actual requirement right? I'm looking for someone who's articulate disciplined does. What didn't even to do without being asked shows up on time isn't going to embarrass me and solves a problem. Okay, but what I'm asking for is a doctorate degree with 9 certifications. And all this stuff so we make an assumption that somebody with these attributes or these solutions is going to actually meet what I want to have without saying what I really want to have and and using a dating analogy. That's like you know from a guy. Hey I'm I'm looking for a five five blonde with a specific cupsize and that's supposed to equal relational fulfillment right? like that's going to make a great relationship. No I want someone who's funny and articulate and you know has the same belief system that I do and the same morals and but I'm not.
13:42.40
Brad Owens
Sure yeah.
13:54.65
Joshua Atkinson
Listing that on a job description I'm giving hard things, not soft things and jobs are about relationships right? So back to hot or not I'm only giving you the outside view of physical characteristics I'm not giving you. The hard underscore view of what this relationship really qualifies for you know and that's why I think Veterans make such great employees. Is they come with like soft skills and spades right? Conflict resolution Adaptability Creativity right? like out of the box thinking but job descriptions aren't asking for that. Ats Systems aren't filtering for Maturity. They're not filtering for personality type. They're not filtering for strengths. They're not, they're filtering for these hard skills and in that case like Veterans are lacking right? They're not and they may even try. But again, the school I went to didn't call it with the school. You went to called it So I don't use the right words I don't have the right pedigree. Which is why I think a conversation is so important because when you have that conversation like man you're the perfect hire kid. Great. But I'm never going to get flagged on an Ats system.
14:56.23
Brad Owens
So you might actually get a lot of enjoyment out of this. So there's a if you haven't already done 1 You need to be on stage at one of these they're called disrupt hr events. Ah you need to look for one because I did a presentation called soft so soft skills suck.
15:04.40
Joshua Atkinson
Oh I'd love it all right.
15:12.44
Brad Owens
And it was this exact conversation of they suck because you can't quantify them how the hell am I supposed to put that in a job description and tell my recruiters to look for these things because it's so hard to do and the pushback is always well have a conversation with them and truly understand. And then all the hiring managers. Go Yeah but that takes too much time and all this and my whole thesis to this thing was suck it up buttercup like it's going to take longer to hire have a freaking conversation.
15:35.58
Joshua Atkinson
It may take longer but I work in sales right? and about sales funnels. The biggest thing is I want all this stuff into the top of the funnel so that by the time I get to the bottom I have somebody that's a qualified lead. Okay great. You're as a recruiter dealing in relational matchmaking right? plan and simple. You are taking.
15:47.51
Brad Owens
Um.
15:55.55
Joshua Atkinson
Someone who's in search of an attractive single to pair up with another attractive single right? The hiring manager needs someone to join their relationship team and you're looking for someone who's a good relational fit. You know sometimes they're more technical sometimes they're more salt like but it's a relationship thing well relationships aren't described on paper but knowing your personality. Right? Like Myers-riggs disk profiles strengths finder profiles through you know, discover or why like those things I think are things you could possibly even refer hey I'm looking for someone who's this potentially for my team right? and and put a top 5 category strengths profile out there I'd like you to have this stuff. I know based on my personality I'm an e and tj right I value efficiency over relationships. Okay, great. That's just my personality so I'm looking for someone who comes with this characteristic this this type of drive I need someone who's fire and forget right like I want that now. Ideally I'd like you to have a technical background in. These areas these certifications disunderstanding. So I don't have to give that to you but everybody says I can teach you hard skills I can't teach you soft and yet we recruit for hard skills. What? what.
16:54.96
Brad Owens
People on video people just on audio can't see this but I almost jumped out of my chair. Yes I Totally agree.
17:01.25
Joshua Atkinson
Ah, you know and that's why I think certifications are so powerful because like in project management A lot of your project team is self skillll development right? Why because my project team can quit whenever they don't like it. So if I'm a bad manager. My team leaves and I fail to meet my outcome right? so. Project management skills whether it's like agile process improvement P and P waterfall like whatever you want to use so much of what I've learned through project management was soft skill development and increased leader development which the military gave me in spade I mean they teach you so much about leadership development conflict resolution things like that but industry goes a step farther because in the military my team can't quit.
17:34.66
Brad Owens
Oh.
17:36.75
Joshua Atkinson
So we teach you leadership more in a tactical get shot at solve the mission standpoint not warm fuzzy care about your team emotional standpoint industry actually does that better industry cares about the emotional team I think probably to a fault now like they go way overward like.
17:45.48
Brad Owens
Can point.
17:55.00
Joshua Atkinson
She didn't like this good that's called thick skin and grit like you need to get some grit I'm sorry but comparing those 2 things together I think you you can round out what veterans do in leadership by giving them better understanding a saskas and certain certifications teach you those right? and I think asking for some certifications or understanding of these technologies or.
17:57.59
Brad Owens
Hey.
18:14.58
Joshua Atkinson
There's ways to do both I think there's ways to do both not probably to a perfect end but maybe to a better end so you don't waste a lot of time I mean how many profiles do recruiters look at that are not even worth anything you know or you use an Ats to make it more efficient and you're actually missing really really good people because. It's not looking for the right thing right? So anyways, just some ideas.
18:36.60
Brad Owens
Yep I mean I love the ideas. So here's what I'll say um I feel like you and I could definitely talk for hours. But here's what I want to do. Everyone that's listening right now. Please go to the description for this episode because you're going to find Josh's Linkedin Profile go there hit him up talk to them try and understand the little things that you can do to change up your hiring process because this right here is proving what I say every single. Episode we suck at hiring we suck at it. We look for the wrong things we have a process that's built around the wrong things we have filter mechanisms that are built around the wrong things. It just fundamentally needs to change I get that we're not going to do all of it. But you can do little things to change. Go hit up Josh at Linkedin and. Especially if you want to get introduced some people that are project management professionals with that p and p certification. He's got you covered there. It's what he kept alluding to please go check him out. Josh thanks for at least taking a couple minutes to shed light on how much we suck at recruiting. Especially when it comes to veterans. So I appreciate you being vulnerable and and telling us like it is.
19:46.21
Joshua Atkinson
I love brat thanks for what you do thanks for the privilege to be here today you know for a few minutes again hit me up guys if you want to talk not just veteran recruiting with just life change in general. We've got to build better awareness step one so we can create a desire to make the change we need. So thanks for letting me be a part of this.
20:01.60
Brad Owens
No absolute love it all right? everybody if you want to hear some more things like this go hit up transform recruiting dot com or brao wins dot com I'm there if you want to send us a note. It's hello at bradowins.com thank you so much I really really appreciate you listening here and go make some change happen.